you didn't finance so you paid cash to the amount that you agreed upon in your initial invoice. who cares how they wrote up their internal invoice. just stop and find something else to do with your life.Let me start at the beginning. In 2019 I suddenly had a buyer for my TA of over 30 yrs so was w/o a car for over a month. I was out of touch with all the changes. I didn't like anything I saw. I wanted something like I had, not all the stuff they put on them now. I went to almost all dealers in Schaumburg. In one of Mr. Perez's letters to the BBB or Atty Gen, he stated that I came in with a willingness to buy this car. Not true. I came in with questions and ended up negotiating for 10 days. He says we agreed on things, and we did, i.e. not paying $300 doc fee, reducing the plate fee from $151 to $26, a reduction in price by $1824, but when it was over and the paperwork was typed up, the finance mgr violently tore it out of my hands two separate times after mere seconds and literally ran from the room both times. It turned out he'd added the $300 doc fee back on in pencil, and there was a $175 plate fee and no evidence of an $1824 price reduction. I questioned him about some of the figures I'd agreed to which I didn't see and he told me "they're on there". He mysteriously disappeared afterwards so I couldn't talk to him. A few days later I was in the hospital for cancer surgery, which mgr. Bill Mitchell didn't want to believe. After that surgery I was in quarantine for some time. During this time Covid began so I was in quarantine for that too. When I was able, & after talking to Kia corporate, I set up a meeting with Mr Perez (who in one correspondence claimed he was in communication with me (which he wasn't) and I was uncooperative (just the opposite.) In the only meeting I've ever had with Perez he showed how he did reduce the $151 plate fee to $26 but he didn't say there would be a second plate fee of $175 added on. When $175 is added onto the remaining $25 plate fee, the total is $200 which is more than the $151 original plate fee. If a document is changed, it has to be approved by all parties or it's illegal, I did NOT agree to the things Mr Perez says I agreed to in one of his letters. I did not know he changed the numbers behind my back. We also set up a meeting with a new finance mgr. Tiffany Phillips. At one point she said, on tape, that the $300 doc fee "is not usually waived." Usually does not mean never so this also means that sometimes it is waived. Salesman Michael Mallory agreed to removing this fee. One of the first things we agreed to Tiffany refused to look at my videos of car dealers online telling what fees are legit and which are bogus. This way she has no comment nor does Mr. Perez. Mr. Perez continued to refuse to correct the $300 illegal change to the sales document. He claims to know nothing about it because "he wasn't there" but the evidence written by his employee is there.. He also will not say anything about the $175 doc fee that appeared out of nowhere separate from the original $151 fee I was quoted, or the missing $1824 price reduction witnessed by everybody in the dealership. I was the only one there at the time and the salesmen were standing 2 rows deep watching salesman Mallory and Mr. Perez and I negotiate. I watched them all nod simultaneously & in unison when Perez suggested the price reduction. In one of his letters, Mr. Perez claimed to authorities that I came in demanding money, commenting negatively on my purpose and attitude, in general slandering me. I did not act that way or demand money. I never did. I sat quietly in the meeting asking for an explanation of the totals on the receipt so I could understand it. If he had nothing to hide, why was he the one pacing and wanting the police to take me away for politely asking for an explanation and refusing,or being unable, to answer my few questions. I called his bluff and called the police myself who told me they would not come "because you did nothing wrong." Kia corporate refused to do anything. Before the Covid quarantine was relaxed I was diagnosed with 2 additional cancers for 3 now. I don't need to make waves, any infection can kill me but Mr. Perez is still more interested in stealing from a dying man. I think he was upset because I caught him in the act of doing what dealers are known to do to customers, and he got nervous. That's why he refuses to discuss certain facts. He can't but they won't go away. I've got the originals. Such as the blatantly illegal fake receipt on which he apparently wanted to show both our signatures which he (arrogantly, in my opinion, sent to authorities.) Actually, my copy does not have any signature by Mr. Perez or Bob Rohrman or any other representative. If he's trying to make it look legal with both signatures, he failed. Why does he need a fake receipt and fake signature to show an honest transaction? My copy does not have his signature and his copy does not have mine. I needed a car then and even more now with my illnesses. I made the mistake of believing our negotiations. I did not expect such fraud in the transaction. So I have the car now for 3 yrs & 10K mi. All this time I've been looking for help. Someone told me he may sue me for saying these things. I say bring it on. I have the original hard copy evidence, witnesses. He's the one who should be afraid to go to court. I want to see how he justifies his actions to a judge. It sickens me at his arrogance to laugh in my face at our meeting as if he can do anything and it also sickens me that so many people just accept it and not stand up for themselves. It looks like I caught him in the act and he's acting nervous about it which tells me I've got a case.
King Fatty, As for your questionsDo I understand correctly?
1) you purchased a car 3 years ago
2) you belive there was fraud involved in the transaction
3) you have some evidence (unclear)
4) you want to know what you can do now about the transaction?
I'm not sure if I follow everything in your narrative, so I tried to break it down into 4 concise issues. Then we can tackle each issue. Please add or clarify if you can
Their explanation was hard to follow but it involved a lot of unidentified numbers, some lumped together. Like saying the rebate, $300 doc fee, $151 original plate fee, $175 second plate fee, etc. were all put into one number on the receipt. They can claim anything is in there and manipulate any other numbers hidden elsewhere so that the total comes out the same. There's no way to know how they added it up during negotiations vs when typed up vs after being typed up & written on. They are experts at juggling numbers. I know it's been 3 yrs, cancer and Covid delayed meetings. I still dare them to try to sue me for revealing the truth because their forgery of my signature, at least, would be revealed in court and that's all public records that they don't want people to know about. They have too much to lose to go to court.Too much to read, but just my first observance was if the $300 was written in w/o anyone's knowledge,
how did all the printed totals add up properly? Three years ago, sorry to say, if you didn't catch any
problems at the time of purchase, time to move on and suck it up.
Yes, mostly documents and one audio recording of my meeting with the new finance mgr.OK good to hear, now the next stage:
Think about all the evidence you have. What is it? I think it's mostly documents, but please elaborate.
Here is the kicker: when you bargain over a deal, both parties can write stuff in by hand to modify the contract. They haggle, they adjust the numbers, back and forth. But once you agree, you are accepting all the hand written modifications, you are saying yes, that's all OK with me.
So we need to see if you have anything that shows something happened different than that story. Because, just playing devil's advocate to explore possibilities, someone could say you AGREED to all the modified paperwork and signed so it's a done deal. But only now you forgot that you agreed, and are only accidentally mistaken from your memory being wrong because all our memories are fallible.
But maybe you have something like certain documents that couldn't have played out the way I describe here? Is it impossible to have happened how I describe here?
get a hobbyYes, mostly documents and one audio recording of my meeting with the new finance mgr.
We did go over numbers on a worksheet. This is where the doc fee was removed by the salesman and the plate fee reduced by the manager, in his handwriting. In the attached excerpt from the worksheet these figures can be seen in the red and blue boxes at the top. They knew the doc fee was $300 and the plate fee was $151. The doc fee was the first thing I insisted they remove. The mgr reduces the plate fee by $126 later at top right from $151. Yet on the receipt there is the remaining $25 for this plate fee and another $175 for a second plate fee. I'm sure he can't charge twice for the same thing, so this is one more item he needs to correct yet he repeatedly has refused. The extra $175 and $300 written back in totals $475. The finance manager is recorded saying they don't "usually" waive the $300 doc fee. That is not saying "never". The salesman Michael Mallory had no problem agreeing to this.
So I agreed to what I was shown on the worksheet by salesman and Mr. Perez but numbers changed that I did not agree to. It is illegal to alter a document unless agreed to by all parties. See "Alter a Contract's Terms Before or After Signing It"
Contract Modification: How to Alter a Contract's Terms and
Contesting a Contract
Then there's the price reduction by ~$1824 suggested by Mr. Perez and witnessed by every salesman in the place because I was the only customer and they were standing 2 rows deep watching us. They all agreed with Mr. Perez's price reduction by simultaneously and unanimously nodding their heads. About 7 witnesses.
In total by these figures, they either over charged me &/or failed to reduce charges by $2,299.00
So, you see, there is written proof showing the $300 illegally added to my contract and an extra $175 also added which shouldn't have been. I have nothing in writing about the $1824 price reduction, but if we went to court and all the witnesses were called to testify, I doubt they'd all perjure themselves for jobs they probably don't even have any more.
I paid in full at time of purchase 3 yrs ago. No payments since then.Can you clarify, which of these is true:
1) you are forced to pay an amount that differs from the documents you signed
2) you are forced to pay exactly what is shown on the documents
Then, can you explain if you've already been paying the amount you disagree with, and if so, how long?
And Chauncy, this is my hobby, sitting at home with cancer keeping guys like this from cheating others & laughing about it.get a hobby
Off the top of my head, here's what I'd reply with if this came up in court.Where I run into a brick wall is how to counter this argument:
The dealership will say that they told you all that stuff was in there, and you wanted it taken out. But then, after some haggling, they got you to accept the stuff and you agreed and signed, so they didn't need to take it out.
I can't overcome that argument. I feel like, no matter what happened with how they agreed to remove all the charges you wanted removed, and agreed to include the price reduction, the dealership can just argue that they changed their mind before the deal was done, so they continued haggling with you and got you to agree that they didn't need to remove charges or include the price reduction.
Put another way, I think the dealership can just agree with you and say you were right, yes, they agreed to all your terms and had that paperwork drawn up, but the negotiations were still ongoing and as time went on they decided to change the terms and you still agreed in the end to those changed terms.
So my main issue is I think you can be fully right and correct, and still the dealership can say they are also correct because the deal evolved over time before signing.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I feel like that's how the deal went down. They agreed to your terms, you agreed to sign, they decided to continue haggling and made new paperwork, you agreed to sign the new paperwork.
EDIT: this sort of problem happened to me on a mortgage. The terms were agreed to, then the lender wrote up the paperwork and included new/different numbers/terms. So the burden was on us to re-read the paperwork all over again (like 150 pages) to find the new numbers and point them out. The lender said they had to change the numbers so it was up to us to accept or reject the deal. Our signature was acceptance. I can't go back and undo the contract based on earlier negotiations where the lender agreed to better numbers. The contract speaks for itself. It's our fault for signing it with the new numbers. We just happened to catch it before signing.
