Compatible spark plugs for TUNED vehicles? - Page 21
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Thread: Compatible spark plugs for TUNED vehicles?

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo13optimaSx View Post
    So please explain to me how my neighbor is running 420whp on his Evo with these plugs? This is what you aren't understanding, I along with this community feel as though we need more than a because that's what we said. And if he won't I'll have to go standalone and have Jorge at p&l do it. He laughed when I told him they wouldn't tune with 1422 in it.

    and the guys over at ams said sure sounds like a scam to me. This is one of the most known tuning shops in the Evo game. Just saying, I happen to live near them and nobody understands not do I. So like I said earlier without egt graphs and afr graphs along with corresponding dyno pulls and coolant temp graphs I'll never believe it. Btw tuned evo's run about 25 or so lbs of boost.

    and a high pressure radiator cap helps with boiling point.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong but while the EVO and the Kia ThetaII are based on the "World Engine" co-design, they are NOT the same engine. I suspect there are far more differences in implementation than there are similarities when you get down to the nitty-gritty of each engine and the car they are in as well as the transmission they are mated to.

    Please do develop your SX to make 420whp and help push the platform let us know how it goes. We already do have an example (Cory Bell) in Korea of a 420whp car but which is heavily modified to make that much power.
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    2012 Optima SX w/Premium Touring Pkg, "Spicy Red" | 61K miles
    Purchased 7/2012, built 3/13/2012 at GA plant.
    Mods: LAP3 UncleBoost ECU tune (Stage 1.5+), HKS M40XL Plugs, Saikou Michi OCCs (PCV&Intake), Injen SRI w/hydro-shield, Nameless MP and CP, Theta2 TBS, CP-E CBE, UR Crank Pulley, Ultra Racing FSTB, Eibach Pro-Kit Springs w/TruHart Struts, Advanti Kudos rims,...
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  3. #202
    04/2014 ROTM stoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo13optimaSx View Post
    So please explain to me how my neighbor is running 420whp on his Evo with these plugs? This is what you aren't understanding, I along with this community feel as though we need more than a because that's what we said. And if he won't I'll have to go standalone and have Jorge at p&l do it. He laughed when I told him they wouldn't tune with 1422 in it.

    and the guys over at ams said sure sounds like a scam to me. This is one of the most known tuning shops in the Evo game. Just saying, I happen to live near them and nobody understands not do I. So like I said earlier without egt graphs and afr graphs along with corresponding dyno pulls and coolant temp graphs I'll never believe it. Btw tuned evo's run about 25 or so lbs of boost.

    and a high pressure radiator cap helps with boiling point.
    The Evo is a different car... It may be a similar block, but that's where it ends. It sucks, plain and simple. There are some guys running the Autolite XP5703 ($7 each) with great success, even when tuned and running nitrous on top.

    The only quasi consensus on the root of the issue is the exhaust manifold runner length on cyl 2 is shorter than the others, possibly causing different temps. Nothing has been proven though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald
    On to our favorite subject of spark plugs. I posted the link in this post just yesterday but after reading over it I decided to take a look at plugs that we are currently using so I pulled some pictures that was posted in the group. This is what I came up with. The top plug is the Autolite XP5703 that I currently use. The next plug is the HKS M45XL and the bottom plug is the stock Denso. I've mentioned to some people how well the Autolite plug works and how it handles the abuse better than the Denso plugs. Reading this article and comparing the plugs side by side further explains to me why. I know people's thoughts on using Autolite products but take a look at the picture and read the article and come up with your own conclusion.

    Choosing a Nitrous Spark Plug: The Missing Manual | Nitrous Tech

    Last edited by stoli; 01-07-2016 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo13optimaSx View Post
    So please explain to me how my neighbor is running 420whp on his Evo with these plugs? This is what you aren't understanding, I along with this community feel as though we need more than a because that's what we said. And if he won't I'll have to go standalone and have Jorge at p&l do it. He laughed when I told him they wouldn't tune with 1422 in it.

    and the guys over at ams said sure sounds like a scam to me. This is one of the most known tuning shops in the Evo game. Just saying, I happen to live near them and nobody understands not do I. So like I said earlier without egt graphs and afr graphs along with corresponding dyno pulls and coolant temp graphs I'll never believe it. Btw tuned evo's run about 25 or so lbs of boost.

    and a high pressure radiator cap helps with boiling point.
    As a reputable vendor in this community, it is not our place to explain to you how your neighbors car can do this or can do that, that has nothing to do with us.

    We are not tuners, nor we have ever claimed to be. We simply provide the information and requirements passed down from the tuners from the reputable manufacturers.

    LAP3 is not the one selling the HKS plugs, we are. So it makes no sense for them to hype it up as if they were needed if they weren't.

    In the 4 years I have been part of this community and KDM scene, I personally have seen countless new members come along and tell us all how they know a professional high end tuner shop that is local to them and they will be tuning their Kia Optima there and will come back with amazing results and prove everyone else wrong about this and that. It always ends up the same exact way.

    The tuner shop could not in fact tune the Optima after-all as they do not the software or hardware to make it happen. I do not doubt your knowledge or the shop you speak of that you mentioned. However being newer to the community, I would take the time to learn about these vehicles and how the engines work and what has been proven to work and what has not been proven to work, before making assumptions or allegations about snake oil and manufacturers and vendors alike making things up, as that is definitely not the case here.
    ​​





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  7. #204
    Learner's Permit GreyOps's Avatar
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    I've had 2 plugs fail in cylinder 2 in my 2013 tuned Optima. First I installed the HKS M45XL and 1 of them failed in less than 5K miles and the rest were filthy. I replaced with HKS M40XL and cylinder 2 failed recently. In both cases the failed plugs looked good so I swapped plugs 2 and 1 and cleared the check engine light. In both cases the problem followed the plug from cylinder 2 to 1.
    The HKS M40XL is still in the car (cylinder 1) because the check engine light just came on yesterday and the AutoZone codes said cylinder 1. I'm going to replace it with one of my HKS M45XL plugs until I figure to do. The HKS M40XL failed in less than 6 months and about 2K miles.

  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOps View Post
    I've had 2 plugs fail in cylinder 2 in my 2013 tuned Optima. First I installed the HKS M45XL and 1 of them failed in less than 5K miles and the rest were filthy. I replaced with HKS M40XL and cylinder 2 failed recently. In both cases the failed plugs looked good so I swapped plugs 2 and 1 and cleared the check engine light. In both cases the problem followed the plug from cylinder 2 to 1.
    The HKS M40XL is still in the car (cylinder 1) because the check engine light just came on yesterday and the AutoZone codes said cylinder 1. I'm going to replace it with one of my HKS M45XL plugs until I figure to do. The HKS M40XL failed in less than 6 months and about 2K miles.
    Well that is very unsettling to say the least! What tune are you running? Do you consistently run 91 or 93 octane gas required by the tunes? Do you have an OCC installed? When you say the plug failed, did it crack and loose part of the white (or now black/tan) porcelain insulator on the tip? How exactly did it fail?
    __________________________________________________ _______________
    2012 Optima SX w/Premium Touring Pkg, "Spicy Red" | 61K miles
    Purchased 7/2012, built 3/13/2012 at GA plant.
    Mods: LAP3 UncleBoost ECU tune (Stage 1.5+), HKS M40XL Plugs, Saikou Michi OCCs (PCV&Intake), Injen SRI w/hydro-shield, Nameless MP and CP, Theta2 TBS, CP-E CBE, UR Crank Pulley, Ultra Racing FSTB, Eibach Pro-Kit Springs w/TruHart Struts, Advanti Kudos rims,...
    (See my Showroom for details)

  9. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamhood View Post
    Well that is very unsettling to say the least! What tune are you running? Do you consistently run 91 or 93 octane gas required by the tunes? Do you have an OCC installed? When you say the plug failed, did it crack and loose part of the white (or now black/tan) porcelain insulator on the tip? How exactly did it fail?
    I am running the BTR 3.1 tune for 93 octane and use Shell 93 octane gas. 2 catch cans, K&N air intake system, 3" Nameless down pipe, Ark test pipe and Ark DTS Catback, Wagner intercooler , HKS blow off valve, throttle body spacer, Seibon vented carbon fiber hood.

    The first plug (HKS M45XL) failed with the porcelain insulator coming loose and sliding up and down on the tip. When I pulled the plug the loose insulator wasn't apparent, I examined it carefully and decided I'd swap plugs 2 and 1 while I got a new set. When I got new plugs (HKS M40XL) I changed all the plugs and examined the bad plug and while looking at it from all angles I noticed the insulator
    would slide all the way down to the ground electrode!

    I haven't pulled the current plug that turned on the check engine light in cylinder 2, then 1, so I have no Idea what the problem is. But, when I pulled it from cylinder 2 there wasn't any sign of any insulator problem.

  10. #207
    Your K5 Optima Vendor K5 Optima Store's Avatar
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    I posted this on the Turbo Forte Forums from bits and pieces of info copy and pasted in this thread and others. Figured it would be good to post here again for others to see.

    There are several factors on why plugs can go bad or become fouled or damaged when being used on the Optima, weather and climate conditions also play a role as well.

    A bad running engine will eat GOOD plugs. That's the bottom line to the hit or miss regarding "which plugs should I use?"

    Controlling the operating temperature of the plug’s firing tip is the single most important factor in spark plug design. “Heat range” is the relative temperature of the spark plug’s core nose, and it's determined by the length and diameter of the insulator tip, as well as the ability of the plug to transfer heat into the cooling system. A “cold” plug transfers heat rapidly from its firing end into the cooling system and is used to avoid core nose heat saturation where combustion-chamber or cylinder-head temperatures are relatively high. A “hot” plug has a slower heat transfer rate and is used to avoid fouling under relatively low chamber or head temperatures. What’s confusing is that a “hotter” (higher performance level) engine requires a colder plug because more power equals higher cylinder temperatures.

    Critical factors affecting heat range include:

    • Air/fuel mixture: Lean air/fuel ratios raise cylinder-head temperatures, requiring a colder plug. Rich air/fuel ratios require a hotter plug to prevent fouling. Mixtures that cause the plugs to read lean may contribute to pre-ignition or detonation. If not running an electronic engine management system, it pays to tune slightly on the rich side to avoid detonation.

    • Spark advance: Ignition timing has one of the greatest effects on plug temperatures. It becomes more critical as compression ratios increase. More timing raises combustion temperatures, calling for colder plugs.

    • Compression ratio: Increasing the mechanical compression ratio raises cylinder pressure, resulting in higher cylinder temperature. The higher the compression ratio, the colder the spark plug needs to be. According to Champion Spark Plugs, for normally aspirated, gasoline-fueled engines, a good rule of thumb is to go about one heat range colder for each full point in compression ratio increase from 9:1 through about 12.5:1, and two heat ranges colder for each point increase between 12.5:1 and 14.5:1. Beyond 14.5:1, 3-4 heat range reductions per point may be needed.

    • Gasoline quality: With musclecar-era leaded gas, the lead is attracted to the hotter (core-nose) part of the plug, causing glazing. The spark runs down the core nose instead of jumping the gap. Going to a slightly colder plug helps prevent lead-glazing. However, with today’s cleaner-burning oxygenated unleaded gas, an equivalent engine needs to run plugs about 1-2 heat ranges hotter than originally specified (many plug manufacturers have revised their catalogs accordingly).

    • Methanol: Methanol has a higher octane level compared to gasoline (allowing an increased compression ratio), contains 50 percent oxygen by mass (requiring a much richer air/fuel ratio), and has a reduced latent heat of evaporation (which cools the incoming air/fuel charge and allows a denser mixture). The net effect is to require a plug that’s at least one step colder than normal for an equivalent gasoline-fueled application.

    • Nitrous oxide: N2O raises cylinder temperatures and may require a plug 1-2 heat ranges colder. Lower output street systems may get by with standard heat ranges if nitrous use is held under 10 seconds.

    • Supercharging/turbocharging: With increased pressure and temperature in the chamber, two or more heat ranges colder may be needed. Extreme high-boost race-only applications may need a surface-gap plug.

    • Sustained acceleration: Prolonged acceleration or high-speed driving
    ​​





  11. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by K5 Optima Store View Post
    I posted this on the Turbo Forte Forums from bits and pieces of info copy and pasted in this thread and others. Figured it would be good to post here again for others to see.

    There are several factors on why plugs can go bad or become fouled or damaged when being used on the Optima, weather and climate conditions also play a role as well.

    A bad running engine will eat GOOD plugs. That's the bottom line to the hit or miss regarding "which plugs should I use?"

    Controlling the operating temperature of the plug’s firing tip is the single most important factor in spark plug design. “Heat range” is the relative temperature of the spark plug’s core nose, and it's determined by the length and diameter of the insulator tip, as well as the ability of the plug to transfer heat into the cooling system. A “cold” plug transfers heat rapidly from its firing end into the cooling system and is used to avoid core nose heat saturation where combustion-chamber or cylinder-head temperatures are relatively high. A “hot” plug has a slower heat transfer rate and is used to avoid fouling under relatively low chamber or head temperatures. What’s confusing is that a “hotter” (higher performance level) engine requires a colder plug because more power equals higher cylinder temperatures.

    Critical factors affecting heat range include:

    • Air/fuel mixture: Lean air/fuel ratios raise cylinder-head temperatures, requiring a colder plug. Rich air/fuel ratios require a hotter plug to prevent fouling. Mixtures that cause the plugs to read lean may contribute to pre-ignition or detonation. If not running an electronic engine management system, it pays to tune slightly on the rich side to avoid detonation.

    • Spark advance: Ignition timing has one of the greatest effects on plug temperatures. It becomes more critical as compression ratios increase. More timing raises combustion temperatures, calling for colder plugs.

    • Compression ratio: Increasing the mechanical compression ratio raises cylinder pressure, resulting in higher cylinder temperature. The higher the compression ratio, the colder the spark plug needs to be. According to Champion Spark Plugs, for normally aspirated, gasoline-fueled engines, a good rule of thumb is to go about one heat range colder for each full point in compression ratio increase from 9:1 through about 12.5:1, and two heat ranges colder for each point increase between 12.5:1 and 14.5:1. Beyond 14.5:1, 3-4 heat range reductions per point may be needed.

    • Gasoline quality: With musclecar-era leaded gas, the lead is attracted to the hotter (core-nose) part of the plug, causing glazing. The spark runs down the core nose instead of jumping the gap. Going to a slightly colder plug helps prevent lead-glazing. However, with today’s cleaner-burning oxygenated unleaded gas, an equivalent engine needs to run plugs about 1-2 heat ranges hotter than originally specified (many plug manufacturers have revised their catalogs accordingly).

    • Methanol: Methanol has a higher octane level compared to gasoline (allowing an increased compression ratio), contains 50 percent oxygen by mass (requiring a much richer air/fuel ratio), and has a reduced latent heat of evaporation (which cools the incoming air/fuel charge and allows a denser mixture). The net effect is to require a plug that’s at least one step colder than normal for an equivalent gasoline-fueled application.

    • Nitrous oxide: N2O raises cylinder temperatures and may require a plug 1-2 heat ranges colder. Lower output street systems may get by with standard heat ranges if nitrous use is held under 10 seconds.

    • Supercharging/turbocharging: With increased pressure and temperature in the chamber, two or more heat ranges colder may be needed. Extreme high-boost race-only applications may need a surface-gap plug.

    • Sustained acceleration: Prolonged acceleration or high-speed driving
    From the reading I have done on plugs, and you commented on a thread I started and I appreciate it, but could this whole debacle be cured by the updated engines, in which, the cylinder 2 temp. issues should be resolved due to proper oiling etc.? If the majority of the plugs are fouling on a cylinder that has well documented issues is it really the plug, or the engine itself causing failure? Anyone's input is appreciated.

  12. #209
    Your K5 Optima Vendor K5 Optima Store's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerfan38134 View Post
    From the reading I have done on plugs, and you commented on a thread I started and I appreciate it, but could this whole debacle be cured by the updated engines, in which, the cylinder 2 temp. issues should be resolved due to proper oiling etc.? If the majority of the plugs are fouling on a cylinder that has well documented issues is it really the plug, or the engine itself causing failure? Anyone's input is appreciated.
    This could definitely be part of the issue that many have seen with their spark plugs failing in cylinder 2, however, I could not tell you if the problems will still occur after the engine has been replaced. A lot of it has to do with the tune that the customer is running that can cause the plugs to fail.
    ​​





  13. #210
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    Updated:

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOps View Post
    I am running the BTR 3.1 tune for 93 octane and use Shell 93 octane gas. 2 catch cans, K&N air intake system, 3" Nameless down pipe, Ark test pipe and Ark DTS Catback, Wagner intercooler , HKS blow off valve, throttle body spacer, Seibon vented carbon fiber hood.

    The first plug (HKS M45XL) failed with the porcelain insulator coming loose and sliding up and down on the tip. When I pulled the plug the loose insulator wasn't apparent, I examined it carefully and decided I'd swap plugs 2 and 1 while I got a new set. When I got new plugs (HKS M40XL) I changed all the plugs and examined the bad plug and while looking at it from all angles I noticed the insulator
    would slide all the way down to the ground electrode!

    I haven't pulled the current plug that turned on the check engine light in cylinder 2, then 1, so I have no Idea what the problem is. But, when I pulled it from cylinder 2 there wasn't any sign of any insulator problem.
    Cylinder 2 UPDATE:
    The second failed plug (M40XL) failed exactly like the first (M45XL). The insulator slides all the way down to the ground electrode covering the firing pin, turn it firing pin pointed up and the insulator
    slides into the plug and it look normal!

    Anyone have any ideas on different plugs? Has anyone had a plug failure like this?

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