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Differences in engines? also engine blew up need to swap... help?!

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24K views 107 replies 26 participants last post by  Sc2dave 
#1 ·
So some of you know my engine has killed itself at 103471 miles, I'm 99% sure I'm going to have to foot the bill myself unless kia will comp me something or they find out they screwed up on a recent warranty work less than 2k miles ago (3 weeks).

I'm looking around and I found an engine from LKQ but it only lists the engine for 2012-2015. Is the 2011 really different? Can anyone confirm, or tell me what is different? I know the sorento's engines are supposed to be identical so I would look into that as well if I'm stuck with finding specifically a 2011 2.0T optima engine.

When installing the new motor is there anything ecu wise that needs modified? or will it just all wire up and hook up the same ready to start and run?

If anyones done a swap on their own car any tips? I have a shop and a lift so it shouldn't be too bad, but being I've never done a GDI car there's always something to learn about.
 
#2 ·
I'm surprised you think there is a chance they will cover it given the mods listed in your signature block. I think most dealers would say 'that's not how it left the factory...'
I wish you luck in the swap though.
 
#7 ·
I'm surprised you think there is a chance they will cover it given the mods listed in your signature block. I think most dealers would say 'that's not how it left the factory...' I wish you luck in the swap though.
I have a great local dealer as well, Butler Kia. They don't care about my mods and always have asked what have I done since I last brought it in! Probably helps the service manager and two tech have modded cars as well. :)
 
#3 ·
Dealership has done all my warranty work with never a issue. None of my mods have caused a issue. Plus stock tune/ecu.
 
#4 ·
What happened to your engine?

Why did it fail?
 
#5 ·
dont know yet its sitting at the dealer... i think timing chain or oil issue... no holes in the block and no bearing material on the dip stick just sounds like metal on metal
 
#6 ·
****.

What type of oil did you use and how often did you change it.

Sorry for all the questions but I am just trying to get a feel for our turbo engine reliability.

Seem like quite a few engines are failing as the mileage build up on these cars.
 
#8 ·
I ran rotella t6 oil with Mobil 1 high mileage oil filter for the past 70k miles... Changed it every 5k (I drive mostly highway so I figured it's ok) I also did 3 air intake cleanings with the BG service and 1 transmission flush.

The he dealership is surprised my car even blew up cuz they know I took care of it. So hopefully that means they are on my side
 
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#9 · (Edited)
****.

Shell T6 Rotella T6 is really a good oil and a 5w-40 weight at that.

I have used T6 before in a Nissan Murano 3.5 V6 and a Infiniti FX45 V8, however I never used the oil longer than 4k miles in either engine.

To be honest, I know that the T6 oi can handle the heat of a turbo engine(some BMW/VW turbo owners claimed to use it in forums I read over the years) but I have not known many owners who used it go over 5k miles even in non-turbo engines.

Not saying that it was the cause or the oil change interval since for all we know the oil pump could have failed or something similar which may have nothing to do with oil used.

However, I am really noticing a trend when the 2.0T engine fail and oil change intervals of about 5k miles while using even synthetic oil.

You have on the longest running engine that I know of before a failure and used a 5w-40 weight oil, which may account for the longer running time before an issue happen with a 5k oil change schedule.

I am just speculating here, but I do not believe that these engines will last long(past 150k miles) on the KIA recommended 5k oil change schedule no matter the oil type or weight.

Could be wrong.

To stay on topic about the engine differences between a 2011 and 2012, probably not much besides being Korean built and American built.

So i would "assume'" if you locate an 2012 engine that matches your old engine country of origin that it should work without any modification aside from maybe a 2012 ECU.
 
#10 ·
Uh, the service interval on my wife's Volvo V60 is 10k miles on a 2.0t. I don't think Greeks 5k mile interval has anything to do with his engine failure. Especially when you consider the damage appears to be more along the lines of catastrophic failure and not premature wear (such as scored piston rings, etc).
 
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#11 · (Edited)
LOL.

You are comparing a Volvo turbo engine, which is not direct injection, to a KIA engine.

Trust me,the Volvo turbo engines in the V60 are not the same animal as the 2.0T in our cars.

However, if you said that your wife had an 300hp S60R and goes 10k mile on the oil then I would be impressed.

FYI, I looked into buying a Volvo again,owned a 2001 S80 T6 and 2005 S40 T5, and read that the newer engines may consume oil so I would think twice about the 10k oil changes in that car, just saying.

Take this advice for what it is worth.

I am sure you are on the Volvo forums which have plenty of posts about the T5 engines.;)

FYI, disregard the direct injection comment since the V60 does has direct injection after 2011.

**** maybe Volvo can make a direct injection engine that can run 10k miles a oil change and still be reliable, however it still not a KIA engine.
 
#19 ·
Hate to remind folks about this but the Rotella T6 oil (ACEA E9 classification, which is Diesel ONLY) is NOT rated or recommended for our gas GDI engines. Even a Shell Ch.E stated as much.

I'm sure it's a great oil in a Diesel engine, but that is NOT what we have. Best to stick with what Kia recommends, especially since they issued a recent TSB on the subject. If they find out that the OP has been running that oil, I'm concerned that they will deny any power train warranty work regardless of the actual cause of the failure (which we don't know yet anyway).
 
#23 ·
I doubt the OP is amused by the sad turn of events this thread has devolved into...again.
 
#30 ·
We want to talk about oil intervals? OK.

Rotella's T6 is designed for use in heavy duty industrial diesel engines for 10-15k mile intervals. The amount of phos and Zinc in those is about double what's in mist gasoline engine oils. They're made to contain lots of soot and fuel particles that are generated by those large dirty diesels.

Now, being in the business of telling people how their oil is holding up and how long they can go, I can honestly tell you that if you're using a modern oil (meets current specs) and you're changing it before 5k miles you're pretty much wasting money. Unless you havea massive fuel leak or are running it on the local dirt track nightly without any form of air filtration, you're going to be fine.

I've been running a test on the Walmart full syntheticin the 2.4L Forte. with testing I've learned that 10k miles is a normal interval and still has a margin of error in case conditions change. 12k wouldn't be unheard of. Amsoil is pushing their full synthetics out to 20k without wear and still meeting specs.

Basically... do whatever you want, just know that there are options. 5k is not out of the realm of normality with modern oils and if you really want to stretch it, test it. Analysis kits are fairly cheap and long term can give you tons of information.
 
#33 · (Edited)
We want to talk about oil intervals? OK.

Rotella's T6 is designed for use in heavy duty industrial diesel engines for 10-15k mile intervals. The amount of phos and Zinc in those is about double what's in mist gasoline engine oils. They're made to contain lots of soot and fuel particles that are generated by those large dirty diesels.

Now, being in the business of telling people how their oil is holding up and how long they can go, I can honestly tell you that if you're using a modern oil (meets current specs) and you're changing it before 5k miles you're pretty much wasting money. Unless you havea massive fuel leak or are running it on the local dirt track nightly without any form of air filtration, you're going to be fine.

I've been running a test on the Walmart full syntheticin the 2.4L Forte. with testing I've learned that 10k miles is a normal interval and still has a margin of error in case conditions change. 12k wouldn't be unheard of. Amsoil is pushing their full synthetics out to 20k without wear and still meeting specs.


Basically... do whatever you want, just know that there are options. 5k is not out of the realm of normality with modern oils and if you really want to stretch it, test it. Analysis kits are fairly cheap and long term can give you tons of information.
So some quick questions.

Will a engine be better protected with fresh oil only 3k miles old or will an engine run and be protected just as well with an oil that is >5k miles old?

Yes the oil can go 10k miles before needing a change, but does it really protects as well as a less used oil when it comes to engine protection?

That is my concern.

So what is best for a long lasting engine in theory aside from non-oil related failures?
 
#32 ·
Cool we can stop arguing now. Go back and reread my last post. I added a bit more useful information (in my defense the perceived oil abuse of course).

And to GreekPower. I apologize. I normally don't go off topic here. Just bored at work I guess.
 
#40 ·
Yes, that is why I apologized.

Case closed, I was wrong in my post to you.

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------

Fresh oils still have contaminants to deal with but those aren't an issue for engines. Engines don't have the super close tolerances to deal with like many large industrial hydraulics etc. So come contamination is perfectly acceptable. An engine oil that cannot tolerate minimal traces of fuel and coolant is not a quality engine oil in the slightest and likely does not meet any newer manufacturer's specifications.

USing a thicker oil (higher viscosity) does not necessarily mean adding more boundary protection on startups/no pressure moments. Too think can get hot and sheer, lowering it below the normal spec for a thinner oil leaving you with no protection. Again, most modern engine oils are meant to be used in an engine. The manufacturer specifies what weigth has the best protection and least amount of wear/drag. Any decent engine oil made in the last 5 years that didn't cost $1 at the dollar store will work fine for 99% of the engines out there AS LONG AS you are using the right specifications on viscosity etc.
LOL.

Are you a politician?

Because you are typing a lot, but actually not really answering the question I ask.

Yes or no, do fresh oil protects an engine better than a used oil with everything being equal-same oil same engine.

Or even simpler, will an oil with only 3k miles on it provides better protection than the same oil with 5k miles on it?
 
#50 ·
Carguy,

Do you even know when at what point after EVERY oil change your oil becomes anything but what you call the best? Is it at 1,955 miles? 2,031? 2,999? 4,856? If you're waiting until 3,000 miles how do you know at this point you don't already have less than perfect oil? Why not change it at 1,000 miles? ****, 500 miles? It's less used/contaminated as you say if it has less miles.
 
#54 ·
I've got test results from my engine and the oil I'm using to know that answer. For me, I'm confortable at the 10k mark with wally-world synthetic and OE fitlers. I've got tests from 3k, 5k, 7k and 10k. Plus I've got statistical data from hundreds of thousands of reciprocating engines in the data base and thousands of different brands of oils on millions of samples. what's a few millions samples? I'm sure they mean less than an individuals personal experience.
 
#52 ·
No wonder this country is tanking...people argue over BS all day instead of working.
I have an excuse...I don't get paid while surfing the internet. One benefit of early retirement.
How many of you can say the same?
How many of you are doing this crap instead of your job?
NOW GET BACK TO WORK, RIGHT NOW! :angry:
 
#62 ·
I come back to check the forum... ****... lots of pointless replies I didn't have to read haha.

As for a update/event of wtf has happened.

The dealership hasnt diagnoised the issue other than "you need a engine and its a low end noise" like wtf that does nothing for me or tell me if its something I did like a timing chain or something random, OR the fact you just pulled the oil pan and made me pay for new oil and reused the oil filter because "kia says we have to reuse oil but instead we will replace it" but when I pick up the car... same filter and new rotella..

1014xx miles was when the warranty work was done
car dies on the highway at 65-80 mph on cruise control at 103471 miles... all it did prior to its death was it kept going into boost to much (I'd say less than 15 miles) it was going 10 psi just to get to 80 and I was concerned wondering wtf figured the wastegate that was just replaced might have went bad, plug in my OBD2 reader and get code P0011 I googled real quick and went to pull over and as I was braking the engine shut off and oil light came on.

hopped out the car, no holes in the block, no bearing material on the dipstick (still clean oil) and oil cap looked fine too, belts all in order, checked for anything outta the ordinary and nothing I could see thought maybe it was some fluke. Put the car in ACC oil light stayed on, tried to start it, and it ran, but wasn't happy so I hurried up and shut it down.

it sounded metal on metal but sounded louder like outside of the engine so I was wondering maybe the timing chain failed? or maybe the RTV was put on to much on the oil pan gasket reseal and it got into the oil pick up or to the filter and took out the oil pump etc etc.


The dealership quoted me 5000+ tax(7%) to install a remained long block with a 12k 12 month warranty (used carries the same mileage). Now I'm smart enough to take a risk and get a used block, why? because that other blocked failed for a reason.. it will fail again. So talking to service managers and higher ups at the dealership they gave me a final "this is only good for 24 hours offer" of 4,498.00 tax included.

So taking that number I called kia corp and the ball is in their court I should hear something by tomorrow/friday at the latest of what they will do.

The dealership tried to scare me with "thats a aftermarket mobil 1 filter I'm not sure if it has a oil bipass like the oem kia oil filters" and "you have so many mods on this car its complex and won't get anything from kia"

well.. lets see and try can't hurt nothing just to look into it... if not 2300 bucks for a 2012 optima sx engine with 30k with a 6 months unlimited mileage warranty (better for me I drive 500-1500 miles per week).

So cliffs

No tune ever installed on the car, stock Kia spark plugs, only mods are ark cat back and mid pipe, FMIC and intake with 2 catch cans, rotella t6 oil, and mobil 1 high mileage engine (duh it IS high mileage haha). with warranty work and maintenance from dealer... so either the dealership will get in trouble for doing warranty work on modified cars, or I get a killer deal on a installed engine.
 
#67 ·
The dealership quoted me 5000+ tax(7%) to install a remained long block with a 12k 12 month warranty (used carries the same mileage). Now I'm smart enough to take a risk and get a used block, why? because that other blocked failed for a reason.. it will fail again. So talking to service managers and higher ups at the dealership they gave me a final "this is only good for 24 hours offer" of 4,498.00 tax included.

So taking that number I called kia corp and the ball is in their court I should hear something by tomorrow/friday at the latest of what they will do.
Read this older article carefully (it may take a while to load - probably archived) and watch the video (click pic).

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443854204578059093585436564

You should be a polite pain in the ass and keep calling them and not waiting for them to call you. They're probably sitting back on this to see if you are a serious persistent complaint or someone who is likely to just accept a delayed 'NO' and walk away. You need to emphasize that you are a Optima Forum member which is a real asset in this case. Tell them that you can send them a link to 5 other member Optima owners with recent/current engine failure dilemma's. You need to let them know 'you know' they have issues with these engines, and that they are well aware of it too! I repeat, be a polite PIA and handle this diplomatically. Most important is to tell them that you need to keep the car just a bit longer before paying off your loan and you will be ready to buy another Optima but not if KIA cannot stand behind their cars. If you keep getting a denial for full replacement then make a deal to meet half way. Ask KIA if they supply the long block, you'll pay the installation labor. If you still get the denial, then ask for the short block and you'll cover the labor. If you have to, tell them that you'll even waive the 12/12K warranty since you would've been 'out of warranty' already anyway, as a last negotiation tool.

In summary, if they're not willing to eat the whole banana the eat some but work your deal with more concessions each time should they resist. Keep repeating that you want to try and stay loyal or else this bad experience will tip the scale to look at other manufacturer's vehicles for your next purchase. Don't forget to point to this Forum and watch what you post here!!!

Personally, it would be better to get a new motor that is installed by the Dealer so it gets setup the right way. Nothing like a new engine vs a pot luck junkyard motor that could crap out soon as well. Even if you just payed the labor, it would be a wash cost-wise to doing the junkyard out-of-pocket swap. Good luck and make the call to get an answer or start negotiatiating.
 
#64 ·
I mean ****... the mods kept the turbo getting cooler air and not stressing it, catch cans minimized blow by, the high flow cat and exhaust was only there to make a neat sound but we know exhaust and cat can't blow a engine its after the fucking engine in the process... the intake? oh yeah, thats because its better filtration with the carbon fiber hood... haha

---------- Post added at 01:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 AM ----------

the sad part is I owe for another 3 or 4 years on this car, my goal was over 350k by the time I paid it off and keeping it all original...oops..

I'm curious to hear what they say because the dealership even admitted I take good care of the car because for my mileage I'm never there, people blow up engines at less than 30k and I'm at 100k with no issues at all lol.

which does make me wonder besides oil changes and intake system cleaning... whens the timing chain or water pump etc need changed?
 
#68 · (Edited)
Greek, your engine would not have restarted if the timing chain had failed. You you would most likely have broke a valve or shattered a piston crown in the process. It sounds as if the dealer believes you spun a rod bearing. But there should have been some metal in your oil if that's the case. Though it might be small amounts that got over looked. I'm surprised they didn't pull the endcaps to confirm.
 
#74 · (Edited)
What I find interesting is that you are stating that Hyundai/Kia (I assume it applies to both) will not be using the existing OEM supplier of their factory oil filters and instead will soon begin to use the FRAM version redesigned for them (due to high cold start pressure) very soon. Am I understanding that right?

Couple of things that tells me. Maybe instead of switching from the Purolator PureOne filters I was using to the Kia OEM filter, I should now switch back at my next OCI. These PureOne filters are very, very nice. They have over the years had all the heavy duty features (including a really good bypass valve) an oil filter should have. The current "orange" PureOne filter is PL14459. There is also an improved version using synthetic filter media (easier flow at start up, even when comparitivly dirty with standard media) and it is PSL14459.

Second thing this tells me is that the 0W-x oil, which flows easier when not at operating temperature, may be more important to be running than I thought. This may help with the higher cold start pressure issue since the oil flows easier and should generates less overall pressure.

The whole FRAM filter issue is disturbing. Many years ago, I used to cut open my oil filters after an oil change to see what was inside and the quality of the filter. At that time, the FRAM was the absolute worst/cheapest piece of junk on the market and I have stayed away ever since. I'd like to think they've changed their ways and are competitive again with the market but who knows?
 
#75 ·
What I find interesting is that you are stating that Hyundai/Kia (I assume it applies to both) will not be using the existing OEM supplier of their factory oil filters and instead will soon begin to use the FRAM version redesigned for them (due to high cold start pressure) very soon. Am I understanding that right?
Yes, it's both Hyundai/KIA because they're the same filter!

It's not the FRAM version. He said Hyundai(KIA) sent them a package of 20 filters re-designed by the Hyundai(KIA) Engineers to have FRAM just manufacture them to their specs just like they do for Mobil 1 filters. Evidently, FRAM is somewhat in the Private Label business which I was unaware of but he also stated that FRAM filters have their own Engineered design too.

I remember him saying something to the effect that we'll be seeing a new part# roll out for our filters which should give us a clue. Unless, Hyundai/KIA decides not to change the # so it doesn't raise any suspicion as to why. We'll see and he stated it should be very soon.
 
#77 ·
Honda used Fram for some filters in the early 2000's. Their quality was so shitty Honda pulled the contract and went with a different group. Too many issues with filter media seperating, bypass valves coming apart etc. Fram will never get another dime from me because of all the issues over the years. Looks like its time to pick up a couple sleeves of OE filters before they get the contratct.
 
#79 ·
I've tried searching around this forum and a few other Kia related ones and all the failures seem to be coming from US built ones maybe thats just due to you guys being a larger number. But wouldn't Kia/Hyundai just have one engine design make the guys in the US build it the same way for quality control ?

The whole lack of standardisation seems odd to me. Some US dealers seem to be strict on oil changes yet in Australia all Kia and Hyundais have oil changes are 9k miles which is a lot higher than yours.
Had a friend that didn't change their Rio oil for 28k miles and that things running absolutely fine.
 
#80 ·
It has a lot to do with CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) guidelines. What is acceptable in Europe and other countries may not be acceptable in the U.S. and Canada for emissions. Case in point, the Holden Monaro was available in the U.S. as the Pontiac GTO. It wasn't available in Canada (screw those guys anyways
) because of how it was built. I believe it had something to do with the gas tank location.

It would be nice if all governments could agree on the same safety/emissions guidelines, if anything to see the driving experience for a specific car in other parts of the country. From what I understand the Ford Mustang is doing well in Germany now that Ford has decided to build a platform that it can sell around the globe Ford Mustang - Germany's favorite sports car - Apr. 8, 2016
 
#81 ·
So I wanted to give a little bit of a update... after calling kia corp again and again FINALLY they escalated the situation above the dealer and regional managers because apparently they won't talk to kia corp... so now things will get interesting they said it will be 2-3 days... maybe finally i'll know what happened to my engine. I wanna say props to Trevor who finally did the job other people couldn't do and got stuff done!
 
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